[johnb224]

I have heard a lot of people saying they only train in poekoelon, not kuntao. In Mas Jims school, we learn both. The holds are designed to teach certain concepts. They are extremely important. Every time you practice a hold, it opens your mind to new avenues.

[Guru Jim]

What I have noticed in Poekoelan is that any techniques done in the Kuntaos is only done in the Kuntaos, such as Hand Crush #1. Let say you’re in the middle of your striking combination, and you’re able to grab your opponent’s right wrist with your right hand. Strike them with your left hand to lower their resistant’s and do the over the shoulder arm break of Hand Crush #1. I might even finish them off with the leg takedown from Rear Bear Hug-Arms Free.

The Kuntaos (Hold Breaks) are being used to fight with in the Poekoelan. Poekoelan is like a buffet, I'll take a little of this, and little of that to get the job done. It all there for you to fight with, why limited yourself. I feel that everything you learn is to be used with one another. Learn all you can and use it.

[johnb224]

What I have noticed in Poekoelan is that any techniques done in the Kuntaos is only done in the Kuntaos, such as Hand Crush #1. Let say you’re in the middle of your striking combination, and you’re able to grab your opponent’s right wrist with your right hand. Strike them with your left hand to lower their resistant’s and do the over the shoulder arm break of Hand Crush #1. I might even finish them off with the leg takedown from Rear Bear Hug-Arms Free.

The Kuntaos (Hold Breaks) are being used to fight with in the Poekoelan. Poekoelan is like a buffet, I'll take a little of this, and little of that to get the job done. It all there for you to fight with, why limited yourself. I feel that everything you learn is to be used with one another. Learn all you can and use it.

In our school the entire system, is within the hold. Its not the techniques, its the concepts within them. I apply them to poekoelon aswell. When I spar, I try to close and take the person down. I use the animals to close. Sometimes I stay in crane and snake to practice perrys, but mas Jim calls this playing pitterpat. If you ever watch two guys street fight, they always end up on the ground. Thats why I try to spar as realistic as I can, Although its hard to close on Mas Toney.

[mascharles]

In our school the entire system, is within the hold. Its not the techniques, its the concepts within them. I apply them to poekoelon aswell. When I spar, I try to close and take the person down. I use the animals to close. Sometimes I stay in crane and snake to practice perrys, but mas Jim calls this playing pitterpat. If you ever watch two guys street fight, they always end up on the ground. Thats why I try to spar as realistic as I can, Although its hard to close on Mas Toney.

A Cun Tao 'hold' is a series of kicks, hand weapons, stances, foot moves, blocks, locks and other moves done in a certain order to achieve a certain goal! THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF A JURU!!

In Chuan Fa, a long range Chinese boxing system, the student learns the above moves and a greater number of these kind of moves, all coming out of motion. Also different foot moves are taught to move in and out of range for offensive attacks and defensive tactics. In other words you use Cun Tao 'DISSECTION' to get the most out of the system! The Chuan Fa fighter is always moving.

In Poekoelan, a close range Indonesian fighting system, most of the Cun Tao techniques are abandoned as the fighter moves from long range, through middle range to close range. Short or close range techniques take over. The knees, elbows and poison hand techniques are king. Of course if you get bounced out of close range, to middle or long range, you must go back to long range techniques.

To say that all street fights end up on the ground, is pure nonsense! A Poekoelan Tjimindie Chuan Fa fighter should have the weapons to prevent this.

To not to confuse anyone--Kun Tao or Kun Taw is Chinese and/or Filipino---Cun Tao is Chinese and/or Indonesian!!!!!!

[KC]

As taught by Goeroe John Malterer at his school the Golden Dragon.

Cun Tao was a beginner class art. You were taught the basic holds, some kicks and punches, some parries and blocks, and basic straight line foot moves. The student waited to be attacked before reacting. These classes were called 1st phase, 2nd phase and 3rd Phase.

Chuan Fa was the intermediate class art. You were taught a long range Chinese boxing system. According to Goeroe Malterer the beginner and intermediate student needed the extra time to block or to maneuever. So you tried to keep your opponent at long range. These classes were called 4th Phase A, 4th Phase B, and 4th Phase C class.

GOEROE jOHN MALTERER----IF YOU COULD DROP YOUR OPPONENT AT LONG RANGE THERE WAS NO REASON TO CLOSE WITH HIM OR NO REASON TO LEARN A CLOSE RANGE FIGHTING SYSTEM!!!!

Poekoelan was the advanced class art. You were taught the 4 animal systems and Poekoelan. Very close range hitting and kicking. These classes were called 5th Phase, 6th phase and above.


Ken Lucas

[mascharles]

Some moves--striking, kicking, blocks, parries and others--of Cun Tao are used in Chuan Fa and also Poekoelan.

[KC]

There are many different views on how to teach the Wetzel Martial Arts Systems. From 100% Cun Tao to as Goeroe John Malterer's classes of 9 months of Cun Tao. But all teach some Cun Tao!

I have been to Jim Wetzel, Monte Hoffman, Gale Shotsilinger, Dick Kluge and John Soloski(please forgive the spellings) classes. All do Cun Tao. ALL LOOK AND ARE THE SAME WITH MINOR DIFFERENCES.

In the shotgun holds, Jim Wetzel's students parry the long gun, so the stock hits the body, they wrap up the gun and step in. They do a sort of hip strike. and finish. Goeroe Malterer's students parry the long gun, so the stock hits the body. Grabs the gun with both hands. Then they kick to the leg, step in and wrap up the gun and finish.

I love to be at another school, talking and hear the famous words! YEA THEY DO CUN TAO, BUT IT IS NOT LIKE WHAT WE DO!

Ken Lucas

[johnb224]

I only know what I learn about kuntao. I cant speak for other schools. I do know that you must understand why it works. I do believe most fights end up on the ground. Try preventing a wrestler from taking you down, its not that easy.

[KC]

Hello John B:

Good to hear from you! I have seen you kick and punch and you have a lot of power. I would hate to be the wrestler who got hit with one of those. An opponent can surprise you and anything can happen in a fight! One little slip and you can be on the ground with the wrestler on top of you. The first victum in a fight is your plan! An attacker can throw a sucker punch out of no where and win a fight.

Let's look at your wrestler! If you know he is coming, He has to get thru your long distance kicks and punches and foot moves, which is your Chuan Fa. Then he must get through your short range systems, your poekoelan and then the snake system. Then he must beat your Kun Tao!! He then must grab and get you to the ground. Then he must beat you on the ground! Even if you fall to the ground you still have the tiger system and your Kun tao skills. The tiger system and the python system both have a lot of locks and breaks that work real well on the ground.

Remember you are doing a combat art, the wrestler is doing a sport!

So if you make a mistake and end up on the ground it is no sign that you will be beaten. I like the odds of a properly trained Poekoelan man over any other trained person in the world!

Ken Lucas

[KC]

Look at the Gracie brothers, when they first came to the United States they could not be beaten, now they cannot win. SO TECHNOLOGY IS ALWAYS CHANGING! You invent a new throw, I invent a counter, and you invent a counter to that.

John B we are going to start to workout on Sunday mornings 10:00 AM to noon. We will work on ground and stick work. You and Tony and anyone else are welcome any time. You should call to make sure we will be there.
304-394-5483. Lunch is on me.


Ken Lucas

[mascharles]

Any one can be taken to the ground! BUT WHAT PRICE IS THE ATTACKER GOING TO PAY TO GET YOU THERE????? IS IT A REAL FIGHT OR YOU JUST FOOLING AROUND???? HOW MUCH FORCE ARE YOU WILLING TO USE?? WHAT DAMAGE ARE YOU WILLING TO DO TO HIM????

[johnb224]

Look at the Gracie brothers, when they first came to the United States they could not be beaten, now they cannot win. SO TECHNOLOGY IS ALWAYS CHANGING! You invent a new throw, I invent a counter, and you invent a counter to that.

John B we are going to start to workout on Sunday mornings 10:00 AM to noon. We will work on ground and stick work. You and Tony and anyone else are welcome any time. You should call to make sure we will be there.
304-394-5483. Lunch is on me.


Ken Lucas

Whats up Ken? Nice to hear from you. I agree with you about the Gracies, they where undefeated at first, but as time went on, people started to learn how to counter their attack. I noticed that UFC fights are starting to evolve. They are doing a lot more stand up now.

[KC]

Just trying to keep my head above the snow. Some of those men in the UFC are real animals!! I still like Mark Coleman, he has been there a long time! THANK GOD FOR THE 'LEAD LEG JOINT KICK' !!

I hope to see you sometime this spring or summer.

Did you ever try to make an arrowhead?

My brother Tim, who you did not met yet, was promoted to goeroe under Victor de Thouras.

Ken Lucas

[johnb224]

KC, on 12 February 2010 - 09:43 AM, said:

Just trying to keep my head above the snow. Some of those men in the UFC are real animals!! I still like Mark Coleman, he has been there a long time! THANK GOD FOR THE 'LEAD LEG JOINT KICK' !!

I hope to see you sometime this spring or summer.

Did you ever try to make an arrowhead?

My brother Tim, who you did not met yet, was promoted to goeroe under Victor de Thouras.

Ken Lucas

I keep trying to make a knife, but its not working out. That is an art in itself. Congratulations to your brother, on his accomplishment.

[tigermonkey]

KC, on 22 January 2010 - 10:36 PM, said:

There are many different views on how to teach the Wetzel Martial Arts Systems. From 100% Cun Tao to as Goeroe John Malterer's classes of 9 months of Cun Tao. But all teach some Cun Tao!

I have been to Jim Wetzel, Monte Hoffman, Gale Shotsilinger, Dick Kluge and John Soloski(please forgive the spellings) classes. All do Cun Tao. ALL LOOK AND ARE THE SAME WITH MINOR DIFFERENCES.

In the shotgun holds, Jim Wetzel's students parry the long gun, so the stock hits the body, they wrap up the gun and step in. They do a sort of hip strike. and finish. Goeroe Malterer's students parry the long gun, so the stock hits the body. Grabs the gun with both hands. Then they kick to the leg, step in and wrap up the gun and finish.

I love to be at another school, talking and hear the famous words! YEA THEY DO CUN TAO, BUT IT IS NOT LIKE WHAT WE DO!

Ken Lucas

THIS IS DIRECTED TO KEN LUCAS, I HAVE NOT HEARD THE NAME MONTY HOFFMAN FOR MANY YEARS. I WORKED OUT WITH HIM WHEN I WAS A TEEN. THIS WAS MANY YEARS AGO. HE DID AN AWESOME NUNCHAKU DISARM WHICH USED A CARTWHEEL.HE LOOKED LIKE A CHINESE ACROBAT
DURING HIS EXECUTION. I HAVE NOT SEEN MANY WHO COULD EXECUTE LIKE THAT.
I WAS TOLD THAT HE DIED OF A HEART ATTACK ,AT WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER AN EARLY AGE. IS THIS TRUE? I COULD NOT GET CONFIRMATION.
ALSO DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT LEVEL HE HAD ACHIEVED? HE TOLD ME THAT WILLIE HAD TAUGHT HIM TIGER SYSTEM. HE WAS VERY GOOD.

TIGERMONKEY

[KC]

We had a big lay off in the early 1980's. I did not have much to do so I started to go to other schools. One of them was Monty Hoffman's school in Wellsburg, WV. I started to teach at the Wellsburg and New Cumberland schools. He called his schools the Fire Dragons.

Monty was an 'ok' man. He retired from Weirton Steel Company. He and his family moved to FL. He died of a massive heart attack, maybe around 1988, but I am not sure of the date. I used to keep in contact with some of the old students, but I have not seen them for a long time.

I have noticed that some of the Wetzel linage schools teach a lot of Cun Tao. Even Jim Wetzel's school teaches a lot of Cun Tao. Monty school was more Cun Tao than anything else. When I was there I started to teach Chuan Fa.

Monty also had a school in PA. Which one did you go to? How long did you know him?

The old ranking system is very different than the one that I use. Monty was very good in Cun Tao. I think he had a Black Belt in Cun Tao. May be more?

Ken 'KC' Lucas