[Guru Jim]

Let me first say that Willem Reeders, and Willy Wetzel was two legends in the Kuntao and Silat community and will always be missed.

I have heard that GGM Reeders used animal fighting like the Monkey and Tiger. What animals did GGM Reeders use in his Royal Kung Fu or Kuntao? I would love to compare the Reeders System to the Wetzel System in the animal fighting area. I feel this would be a great learning experience for all.

[redantstyle]

greetings gurujim,

  In the Willem Reeder's style of martial arts,as i understand it, animal 'hands' are not a primary focus although they do have great use.

there are tiger claws, crane hands, and snake strikes.  in an overall sense, the system is a 'dragon' method.  there is a lot of coiling and spiralling in the movements of the body.

however, animal hands are really only the end function of method of striking that focuses on the wrist and forearm and uses the animals as secondary penetrations, mostly after a palm change.

there are techniques of hooking and striking using the crane, but again, this is primarily a wrist technique.

tiger hands are used to attack vulnerable areas like the throat and groin, and to grasp hair or clothing for a takedown.

tiger hands are considered chinna attacks, one prime technique is a lead into windmill or 'puter kepala'.

snake strikes are often delivered palm, ala 'hok chan', but as they reflect a type of rapid short range striking, they can be employed in various palm positions. they are often used at the tail end of a trap hands technique.

all in all, most animal methods are used as 'blocks', traps, or chinna attacks, including seizing, but not so much as a striking method.

strikes are fists, palms, elbows and knees.

the dragon elements are more subtle and are a function of biomechanics more than any type of hand or attack.  the dragon uses pivoting, displacement, palm changes, folding and unfolding methods, and substitutions or pressure release techniques.

the other animals flow out of the movements of the dragon.

[Guru Jim]

In Poekoelan Tjimindie there are four animals, the "BINATANG EMPAT" or Four Animal Fighting. Two is said to come from Silat and two from Chaun Fa. The Snake and Tiger come from Silat, and the Monkey and Crane comes from Chaun Fa. In most Poekoelan Tjimindie the practitioner acts like the animal they are using.

However, this is where I'm different. I only use the principles of the animals and I don't mimic the animal's behavior that I'm using. I still use the mind set of that animal and the spirit of that animal. For example:

Monkey (Monyet) My personal Favorite:

I will use the scooping hand parries, Baiting Stance (Head Cat, Vertical Trap, and etc...), Rolling and Rolling Takedowns, Kicks that seem to come odd angles, Retreat steps and evasive foot moments, jumping, going from high to low stances and from low to high stances. At no time will I hop around like a monkey.

One of my favorite techniques is,

Attacker throws a right punch. You enter from outside with a monkey slap to the left side of their face as you drop down into a squatting position your right and left hand grab a lot of flesh on the attacker's right lead leg as your right foot sectors the attacker's right foot slamming your body into the knee of the opponent taking them down. Use your monkey jumping and strike their body fast and hard (Monkey Playing The Drum).

I would love to hear from other Poekoelan Players to get their input on this subject. I feel this could be a great learning experience for us all.

[Mas Jessica]

At no time will I hop around like a monkey

I dunno...I saw a student run away form someone doing this once.  It was quite an effective way to get them to run around the studio....

[Guru Jim]

Mas Jessica,

? ? ?I know that the Poekoelan Tijimindie Tulen does act like the animal they are using. Can you please post about your use of the animal??? It would be great to heard the Tulen view point as well.

[Mas Jessica]

Hi Guru Jim,

We use monkey and tiger a lot for ground fighting.  Monkey rolls and leaps work well for covering distance while staying on or near the ground as do Tiger leaps.  We don't do much ground fighting at the moment (unfortunately). Tiger is good for parries, and rakes as well.

We use crane and snake more for upright fighting.  A lot of the duck and cover moves are from crane as well as the one legged stances.  Fighting from silat position and the unwinding moves are from snake.

I'm not sure if this answered what you were asking....

[Guru Jim]

Just want to know the Tulen use of the animals. I have seen that the Poekoelan Community have the same theories on the animals. However, the use of the animals can be as different as night and day. Thank for your in put, it's truly valued.

[KC]

Hello Jim:
You are doing the animal systems as I was taught by Goeroe John Malterer. We only used the physical techniques that a human fighter would use. Some of the mannerisms of the animals were also used.

Some other people, Barb Niggle and William Sanders, teach their students to become the animal!

Ken Lucas

[Guru Jim]

Hello Jim:
You are doing the animal systems as I was taught by Goeroe John Malterer. We only used the physical techniques that a human fighter would use. Some of the mannerisms of the animals were also used.

Some other people, Barb Niggle and William Sanders, teach their students to become the animal!

Ken Lucas

I use the mindset of the animal and the physical movement of the animal without becoming the animal. I have had people tell me that they can see the Wetzel Animals in my animal system. However, they have also told me that it's very different from most Poekoelan people. For one thing I don't act like the animal by jumping up and down screaming like the monkey which I have seen.

I talked to one instructor about me not acting just like the animal, and he told me that it important to act like the animal to fight as vicious as the animal. I then asked if it got messy when his students did the monkey. He want to know why, and I asked him, don't they throw their poop at each other? LOL!!! If they want to act like the animal is Ok by me, just don't tell me I'm doing it wrong when I don't.

Now, what do I mean by Mind Set? When in the tiger, I think of myself as a Tiger. In my mind I have it set to rip, tear, climb, and so on but in an effective way to fight without all the extra stuff to be more like the animal. I think like the animal, I'm the hunter, and you're the prey.

[KC]

I understand your point of view! You are very close to the John Malterer/ Wetzel way. Also I understand that some instructors are teaching their students to act like the animal. Also I understand the other people who want you to become the animal.

To all of the other people. Does the tiger use sweeps or 1/2 sweeps? Does the the tiger jump kick with both feet into the attackers leg? Does the tiger use leg levers? Does the tiger make a fist and throw hammer blows? Does the tiger use leg shears?

Jim I have a good article from Karate Illustrated, June 2000, Fight Like An Animal, by Thomas Nardi. Bill Sanders and Don Haseirig are featured in this article! IF YOU WOULD E-MAIL ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS I WILL SEND YOU A COPY AND YOU CAN POST IT! kclucaswhitedrag@aol.com

Ken Lucas

[Guru Jim]

To all of the other people. Does the tiger use sweeps or 1/2 sweeps? Does the the tiger jump kick with both feet into the attackers leg? Does the tiger use leg levers? Does the tiger make a fist and throw hammer blows? Does the tiger use leg shears?

Ken, my answer to the above question is yes. Now, I have been told by other instructors about how I teach things. Let me first state that I'm not a traditional Poekoelan Instructor. I will break the tradition if something show more useful and this is why I do what I'm about to say.

I don't teach the stances like stances that most instructors do. Let's take the Tiger for a point of reference. The stances like Poekoelan Silat 1-4, and Pin Down aren't stances to me. I treat them as jurus to help the student to better learn the tiger. Then the student will mix the techniques like Punching, Kicks, and sweeps in with these techniques for a great understanding. Now, I have been told that I'm murdering Willy's art, but I tell them that I'm teaching in a way that helps the student to better learn. They learn the same stuff, just in another order than they do.

I Know, I Know, I'm a bastard for doing this.

[GoldenNaga]

For what it's worth, at my school a lot of people do get into acting like the animals, at least during training. I think that it's useful for helping people to create that mindset that Guru Jim referred to. When it comes time for fighting, there is a lot less jumping around like a monkey.

I look at it this way: For many people, the techniques that we teach seem strange and awkward. By allowing them to be an animal instead of a human (not saying humans aren't animals), they are able to wrap their minds around the techniques better.

Of course, this isn't true for everyone. It's all a matter of learning styles, etc.

[KC]

Hi:
Have you heard anything about the Wetzel movie or book????

Ken Lucas